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Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review

John Riley reviews the Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S telephoto zoom lens, Z-Mount lens for Nikon's full-frame (and APS-C) mirrorless cameras.

Highres Nikkor Z 70 200mm on Nikon Z5 1599056761

Most marques offer a premium quality 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, put a lot of effort into making it as good as it possibly can be and charge a pretty high price for it. Nikon now join the fray with this offering for their already known to be outstanding Z system, so expectations are very high. Will the other fine lenses in the range be a hard act to follow? We find out, using the 24.3MP Nikon Z5 body.

Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Handling and Features

Highres Nikkor Z 70 200mm Front Oblique View 1599056728

There is no escaping the fact that any 70-200mm f/2.8 full-frame lens is going to be fairly hefty, but the new Nikkor weighs in at a reasonable 1360g without the tripod collar, or 1440g with. It fits well size-wise with the Z5 body provided for the review and balance-wise the lens is where the natural centre of gravity lies. This works well.

Starting our tour of the lens at the front, a large petal lens hood is provided. This bayonets securely into place and is held firmly by a locking catch that is secure and has no tendency to be accidentally released. Within the bayonet fitting is a standard 77mm filter thread.

The zoom ring is wide, does not change the length of the lens, and is smooth in operation. It is clearly marked with focal lengths of 70, 85, 105, 135 and 200mm. Behind this is the bank of L-Fn2 buttons, equally spaced around the barrel, and pressing one of these will perform an action assigned from the camera menus.

Behind this lies the manual focusing ring, which is active during AF, so small tweaks can be made as desired. Minimum focusing distance depends upon the focal length. Maximum magnification is 0.2x, or 1:5.

70mm 0.5m 1.64 feet
85mm 0.63m 2.07 feet
105mm 0.68m 2.23 feet
135mm 0.8m 2.62 feet
200mm 1.0m 3.28 feet



Highres Nikkor Z 70 200mm With Hood on Nikon Z5 1599056862

Immediately behind this is the OLED information panel, which can be set to indicate aperture, focus distance, depth of field, focal length or ISO. Also at this point is the L-Fn1 button, also able to be assigned various functions from the camera menus.

Moving closer to the camera body, the rotating tripod collar can be removed if desired, but is very useful on a tripod for moving the camera easily from landscape to portrait orientation. Behind this is the control ring, which can be assigned different functions such as aperture control or exposure compensation. Again, these are set via the camera menus. When set to aperture control the aperture change is totally silent and totally smooth, ideal for videographers.

Finally, closest to the lens mount, is the AF/MF switch and the focus limiter. Focus can be set to full range, or limited to infinity to 5m. There is no VR switch as this is controlled from the camera menus. The lens is moisture and dust resistant and the front element also has a Fluorine coating to repel dust, water and grease.

Optical construction is 21 elements in 18 groups. There are 6 ED (Extra Low Dispersion), 2 Aspherical, 1 Fluorite and 1 SR (Short wavelength refraction) elements. The diaphragm comprises 9 rounded blades for improved bokeh.

In terms of handling, the lens cannot be faulted. Fast and accurate AF locks on every time. The VR system promises 5 stops advantage, and certainly, 4 stops can be secured reliably and sometimes 5 stops. Of course, this does nothing to address subject movement such as wildlife, but it is still a huge benefit in reducing camera shake.


Highres Nikkor Z 70 200mm Rear Oblique View 1599056819
 

Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Performance

Looking first at sharpness, there are very few lenses that reach this standard and so consistently as well. At 70mm, the centre is outstanding from f/2.8 to f/8 and excellent from f/11 to f/22. The edges are outstanding from f/2.8 to f/8, excellent at f/11 and f/16 and still very good at f/22.

At 105mm, the centre is outstanding from f/2.8 to f/8 and excellent from f/11 to f/22. The edges are outstanding from f/2.8 to f/5.6, excellent from f/8 to f/16 and still very good at f/22.

At 135mm, the centre is outstanding from f/2.8 to f/8 and excellent from f/11 to f/22. The edges are outstanding from f/2.8 to f/8, excellent at f/11 and f/16 and still very good at f/22.

At 200mm, the centre is excellent at f/2.8, outstanding at f/4, excellent from f/5.6 to f/16 and still very good at f/22. The edges are excellent from f/2.8 through to f/16 and very good at f/22.

 

Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S MTF Charts

How to read our MTF charts

The blue column represents readings from the centre of the picture frame at the various apertures and the green is from the edges.

The scale on the left side is an indication of actual image resolution and sharpness as LW/PH and is described in detail above. The taller the column, the better the lens performance.

For this review, the lens was tested on a Nikon Z5 using Imatest. Want to know more about how we review lenses?


CA (Chromatic Aberration) is extremely low all throughout the range, both centre and edge, and is very unlikely to need further correction. This was measured with any accessible in-camera corrections switched off, so it is indeed a superb result.

 

Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Chromatic Aberration Charts

How to read our CA charts

Chromatic aberration (CA) is the lens' inability to focus on the sensor or film all colours of visible light at the same point. Severe chromatic aberration gives a noticeable fringing or a halo effect around sharp edges within the picture. It can be cured in software.

Apochromatic lenses have special lens elements (aspheric, extra-low dispersion etc) to minimize the problem, hence they usually cost more.

For this review, the lens was tested on a Nikon Z5 using Imatest.

Distortion is modest for a zoom lens and at 70mm is pretty much as good as a macro lens might be. Pincushion distortion can be measured throughout the focal length range, at +0.05% (70mm), +1.25% (105mm), +1.67% (135mm) and +1.99% (200mm) – further correction could be made in software if required.

Bokeh, the quality of the out of focus areas, is beautifully smooth and could be described as “buttery” in some images. Very nice indeed.

No flare could be induced even with very strong backlighting.

Vignetting is modest and is not particularly obvious in most images.

Aperture 70mm 105mm 135mm 200mm
f/2.8 -1.6 -2 -2.5 -2.6
f/4 -1 -1.2 -1.4 -1.6
f/5.6 -0.7 -1 -1.1 -1
f/8 -0.7 -0.9 -0.9 -0.7
f/11 -0.7 -0.9 -0.9 -0.6
f/16 -0.7 -0.9 -0.9 -0.6
f/22 -0.7 -0.9 -0.9 -0.6


In summary, this is outstanding performance and the lens is right at the top in terms of quality of results and handling.

 

Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Aperture range

You can view additional images in the Equipment Database, where you can add your own review, photos and product ratings.

 

Highres Z70 200 2 1578318833

Value For Money

The Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S lens is priced at £2399. Considering that the FTZ adapter makes use of Nikon F lenses possible, then we could also consider the AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL ED VR at £1999.

To put the VFM equation into perspective, other marques offer various similar specifications.

Mirrorless systems:

DSLRs:

The conclusion is that although the price is high, considering the quality the price is also not unexpected and is fair. It may yet fall over the coming months, but we get what we pay for here, and we get a lot of quality. For more options have a look at the Top 28 Best Telephoto zoom lenses.
 

Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Verdict

The quality is there, so much quality, and basically this is a truly outstanding zoom lens. The focal length range is highly desirable, giving so much scope and versatility in subject matter from portraits to landscapes to sport and much more. Sometimes lenses with such high sharpness can be a bit ragged in terms of bokeh, but here even the bokeh is as smooth as butter. The cost may be high, but falls within expectation and what we get in return for our cash is a lens that is outstanding in every respect. Without doubt an Editor's Choice.

Ephotozine Editors Choice Award The Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S gives an outstanding performance and superb handling.

View Full Product Details

Own this lens? Let us know what you think of it in the EQDB.

Spotted a mistake? Let us know in the EQDB.

Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
MTF50 Graph At 70mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
MTF50 Graph At 105mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
MTF50 Graph At 135mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
MTF50 Graph At 200mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
CA Graph At 70mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
CA Graph At 105mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
CA Graph At 135mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
CA Graph At 200mm | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Mallard | 1/500 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 1600 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Cenotaph 2 | 1/1000 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Mallard | 1/500 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 1600 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Squirrel 1 | 1/800 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 1600 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Squirrel 2 | 1/1600 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 1600 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Texture At Open Aperture | 1/160 sec | f/2.8 | 200.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
CA Test | 1/15 sec | f/22.0 | 84.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Cenotaph | 1/250 sec | f/5.6 | 200.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Clock Tower | 1/400 sec | f/8.0 | 85.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Damhouse | 1/1600 sec | f/8.0 | 71.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Derelict Chapel | 1/80 sec | f/11.0 | 70.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Derelict Rolling Stock | 1/6 sec | f/22.0 | 82.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Dereliction | 1/30 sec | f/11.0 | 100.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Gravestones | 1 sec | f/16.0 | 101.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Machine Plaque | 1/80 sec | f/8.0 | 200.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Monument | 1/25 sec | f/11.0 | 200.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Old Boiler | 1/25 sec | f/8.0 | 145.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Old Engine | 1/50 sec | f/8.0 | 100.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Portrait 1 | 1/320 sec | f/8.0 | 125.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Portrait 2 | 1/200 sec | f/8.0 | 155.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Portrait 3 | 1/160 sec | f/8.0 | 101.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Project Decay | 1/200 sec | f/5.6 | 150.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Red And Green | 1/200 sec | f/8.0 | 140.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Red Robin | 1/100 sec | f/8.0 | 125.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Red Telephone Box | 1/40 sec | f/8.0 | 140.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Rhubarb | 1/30 sec | f/8.0 | 145.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Rosa Chinensis | 1/160 sec | f/8.0 | 200.0 mm | ISO 400 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Texture In Old Brick | 1/60 sec | f/8.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Texture In Old Chapel Brick | 1/10 sec | f/11.0 | 145.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Texture In Old Wheel | 1/6 sec | f/22.0 | 100.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Vintage Crane | 1/13 sec | f/11.0 | 82.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Woodland Graveyard | 1/6 sec | f/11.0 | 150.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Yellow Wheel | 1/100 sec | f/8.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F2,8 | 1/640 sec | f/2.8 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F4 | 1/320 sec | f/4.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F5,6 | 1/160 sec | f/5.6 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F8 | 1/80 sec | f/8.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F11 | 1/40 sec | f/11.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F16 | 1/20 sec | f/16.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Bokeh At F22 | 1/10 sec | f/22.0 | 120.0 mm | ISO 100 | high res
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review
Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Review

Nikon Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Specifications

Manufacturer
Nikon
General
Lens Mounts
Nikon Z
Lens
Focal Length
70mm - 200mm
Angle of View
12.2° - 34.2°
Max Aperture
f/2.8
Min Aperture
f/22
Filter Size
77mm
Stabilised
Yes
35mm equivalent
No Data
Internal focusing
Yes
Maximum magnification
0.2x
Focusing
Min Focus
50cm
Construction
Blades
9
Elements
21
Groups
18
Box Contents
Box Contents
No Data
Dimensions
Weight
1440g
Height
220mm

Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S Verdict

Features
Handling
Performance
Value for money
Verdict
Pros
  • Outstanding sharpness
  • Very low CA
  • Modest vignetting
  • Low distortion
  • No flare
  • Beautiful bokeh
  • Weather resistance
  • High construction standards
  • Very well-featured
  • Superb handling
  • Fast and accurate AF
  • Effective VR
  • OLED information panel
Cons
  • High cost, but still good value

Comments

Ilamoga
6 3
Sep 3, 2020 12:01am
Man, you say that this lens is outstanding at 2.8 at all FL and you only put ONE 2.8 shot of a duck? Are you serious? And you have plenty of F/22 shots... shots that I could get with a 50 years old lens at f22. I'm done with ephotozine! Last modified by Ilamoga on 3 Sep 2020 12:03AM
joshwa
joshwa
13 927
Sep 3, 2020 9:49am
Hi llamoga, We've uploaded additional shots taken at f/2.8 Thanks Josh
ChrisV
ChrisV
17 2.3k
Sep 3, 2020 1:18pm
You don’t mention the Tamron 75-180 for mirrorless (Sony) In the alternatives. A surprising omission as you’ve reviewed it relatively recently and it’s there to give a bit of perspective on third party pricing. This does seem a superb lens (but then again this class of lens has always tended toward outstanding results). It’s a bit frustrating Nikon supplied one of their lower resolution FF bodies when surely a more revealing test of its capabilities would be with paired with a Z7?
PH56
PH56
11 9
Sep 3, 2020 1:28pm
I have been wondering for a while now how your lens review performance testing varies so much. In this review you state that the lens has "outstanding" sharpness with figures of just over 3500 LW/PH, yet in other reviews (for example the Sigma 70-200mm f2.8 Sport) you say that sharpness is outstanding at figures above 4500 LW/PH. How are we supposed to take these reviews seriously when trying to compare performance of different lenses in the same category? There needs to be consistency in the scoring and level at which you would describe performance as "outstanding", "excellent" etc.
Ilamoga
6 3
Sep 3, 2020 1:42pm
Hi Joshwa! Thanks for the 2.8 shots! It makes much more sense to shoot this lens at 2.8 and post 2.8 shots. Last modified by Ilamoga on 3 Sep 2020 1:42PM
johnriley1uk
johnriley1uk
19 29
Sep 3, 2020 4:47pm
@PH56 - the problem lies with the inevitable use of different resolutions of camera to test the lenses. The only way to standardise this is to have the same camera body with the same resolution for all lens tests. This could be done with film, when typically Kodak Technical Pan film might be used, but obviously can't be done with digital. So the ratings are relative to the theoretical maximum possible for a given sensor. So if the maximum that might be expected was, say, 4000 LW/PH the a lens that resolved 3800 might well be considered outstanding. The wording is also designed to provide a bridge between the older reviews where figures were not given and those of the past five years or so where they are given. Nobody claims this is perfect, but it is consistent as far as possible and should be taken along with the real world pictures and commentary. Hope that helps!
johnriley1uk
johnriley1uk
19 29
Sep 3, 2020 4:51pm
@ChrisV - Yes, I would have preferred a Z7, but we have to accept what is available at any given time and the review samples are no doubt under a lot of demand. As regards the 75-180mm it should have arguably been included, but this time I looked purely at the 70-200mm f/2.8 options. There are also quite a few f/4 versions.
PH56
PH56
11 9
Sep 4, 2020 4:54pm
Quote:@PH56 - the problem lies with the inevitable use of different resolutions of camera to test the lenses. The only way to standardise this is to have the same camera body with the same resolution for all lens tests. This could be done with film, when typically Kodak Technical Pan film might be used, but obviously can't be done with digital. So the ratings are relative to the theoretical maximum possible for a given sensor. So if the maximum that might be expected was, say, 4000 LW/PH the a lens that resolved 3800 might well be considered outstanding. The wording is also designed to provide a bridge between the older reviews where figures were not given and those of the past five years or so where they are given. Nobody claims this is perfect, but it is consistent as far as possible and should be taken along with the real world pictures and commentary. Hope that helps! I totally understand that the same camera body is not used for all tests and that the resolution differs between models. Perhaps the LW/PH figures should not be included, instead using a scale from say 1 to 100 based on the sharpness vs maximum resolution of the test camera. That way all of the reviews will be scored in such a way that lenses can be more accurately compared. I don't believe for one minute that the latest £2400 Nikon Z lens would resolve softer images than the Sigma equivalent, but the figures shown in the reviews do suggest that. I just think that for someone looking for say a new 70-200mm f2.8 lens (not a cheap purchase) the current scoring system is a bit misleading. I do agree that the sample photos play an important part but a performance chart based on percentage of maximum resolution would also help a lot in this decision making process.
johnriley1uk
johnriley1uk
19 29
Sep 4, 2020 5:20pm
@PH56 - Thanks for that, it's an interesting idea. It used to be a bit like that in that we didn't have any figures quoted, just the descriptive words applied to a graph, so we had no idea what the actual figures were. The idea of including the figures was to increase the amount of information offered and the text describes the meaning to form a comparison between old and new methodology. Many people welcomed the figures, so removing them might cause a problem, but it certainly can be mulled over and discussed.